Large Scale Logistics
by A scientists life in Eve on Sep.18, 2012, under Eve online
The past few days have been pretty manic running large scale logistics operations. I’ve never undertaken so many jumps in such a short period of time, however it just proves how essential Jump Freighters and Carriers are for living in null sec.
I understand that CCP want to make living in null sec space essentially self-suffiient, and to be honest I could see how that is possible, and could even plan for it to be so to the degree where we could be virtually cut-off from hi-sec with no issues.
There are, however, a number of barriers to this lifestyle, especially for a heavy industry Corp such as ourselves.
The first, and the biggest, is the market for our wares. Where do you sell the volumes of ships, modules and ammo we produce? Certainly not in the current version of null sec where most residents (at least those you can find!) have their own logistics in place and simply pop out to hi-sec to resupply. There are simply so many modules and rigs in the game, including the meta level versions which we cannot produce and are often preferred for their fitting requirements and over-heating tolerances (T2 ECM modules, I’m looking at you!). It would be impractical for us to stock a T1 and T2 only market – we’d need to invest in meta items to sell at the same time, and to do that we’d need to add an uplift to cover our costs and to turn a profit… and so the buyer just makes the extra effort themselves and buys from hi-sec.
The second is availability of materials. We, of course, can mine all minerals from belts and grav sites in our system. No problems. However, with logistics as they currently are, it’s more sensible to mine ABC type stuff, jump out and sell and then buy Tritanium and Pyerite from the market, compress it and jump it back out again. We’re much more profitable that way.
Moon materials are, of course, a different matter. Until CCP release the much fabled ring mining idea so we can get all moon materials in our system, clearly we need to go out, sell our moon product and use the revenue to fund buying other moon goo for our T2 production lines.
Sweeping all of this aside, and adding ring mining into the picture, in theory we, as a Corp, could exist shut off in our system harvesting all the materials we need and making all sorts of different things for our members to exist, and then to sell on the market.
Ultimately, it’s the market that is the issue. Where we are now, at one stage we had almost 7 billion ISK of ships, ammo, rigs and modules on the market at no more than 10% above Jita price – often lower and quite often actually near or at Jita prices.
Sales were terrible. Simply horrible.
In the end, we took the orders down, jumped the stock out to Jita and I had sold it all within 72 hours, and I wasn’t sitting there playing the 0.01 ISK game either (well, maybe just a little, but not for hours at a time).
What is the answer?
Well, we’re working towards changing things to make us even more self-sufficient, only reliant on moon goo and base minerals to survive and produce out of null sec properly, rather than the split hi-sec/null sec we currently operate.
The answer rests with the market. I don’t think nerfing logistics is the answer, as that would just allow the larger and better organised alliances to dominate null sec even more. Removing the stranglehold on resources that is moon mining will go a long way, if implemented correctly.
Ultimately, it’s down to the industrialists to get involved in null sec properly, not just do “null sec lite” as one of my Corp mates describes what we’ve been doing ourselves the past year or so.
If us industrialists can set up and operate efficiently and to the correct scale, then there’s no reason at all we can’t supply a good market place in null sec that matches or even beats Jita prices.
However there is still one massive hole in this situation. Meta items. While I am unable to build meta items (let’s face it, meta 4 in the majority of cases), we will always have to invest significant amounts of ISK to stock a market appropriately.
I’d like to see CCP address that in some way – maybe a more basic implementation of invention. Production costs would have to be really carefully set, as mission runners have already recently had their income from drops “tweaked” in rather unpleasant ways, and this could potentially damage things even further.
Thoughts anybody?
Anybody have any experience of this themselves they’d be willing to share?











I just wanted to say – We couldn’t be ENTIRELY self sufficient….We need jump fuel!
I was trying to look at a more hypothetical stand point, particularly as ring mining doesn’t exist yet.
However to answer your point – an ice belt is rarely more than a few jumps away, and you’d need to be there (or buying fuel from people who were there) to fuel your POS anyway.
I also missed out a few things – we could “invade” wormholes for gas and sleeper goo to make T3′s ok, but as far as booster production goes… maybe there should be an iHub upgrade that increases the % chance of one (and only one) of your spawned grav sites being a gas site?
The problems you have identified are a common experience to every industrial specialist operating in null. Very clearly null sec is intended for Territorial PVP first and foremost. Even in NPC 0.0 the alliances that operate there carve out their piece of the area and defend it almost religiously.
Logistics, industry, mining, and all the other aspects of EVE that are not directly PVP related are essentially methods by which the powers in null sec are able to differentiate themselves and earn an indirect advantage over one another on the battlefield.
The “answer” to operating in null sec is to realize that everything you do is essentially either supporting or working against the interests of the pilots engaged in the Territorial PVP. This is largely going to be true irregardless of your your own intentions. You can’t not take sides — your actions always effect someone.
In terms of efficiencies of production:
The hybrid null/high method of industry cannot be broken.
The efficiencies of mining ABC and shipping out to highsec then bringing in compressed trit/pyr for cap production is simply too great to be overcome.
The sales demand in null sec will always revolve around battlefield engagements. Before/after fights you will have high sales volumes and high prices and dead time in between. This isn’t kind to steady-as-she-goes industrial production but is perfect for solid, quick logistics work (and after large fights you will typically see people moving in JF’s full of goods).
For a lot of 0.0 the JF from highsec is going to be less jumps than say taking your ship all way across Catch to GE- if you are near Provi to get what you need so local production isn’t local if the total jumps to JITA is less than the total jumps to your market hub. I’m sure you know what it takes to JF in supplies, you can expect every single pilot around you knows exactly how many jumps to JITA (or RENS/AMARR) their home system is.
If you want to setup somewhere that “self sufficiency” is the most important quality then you are going to have to go to deep 0.0 (like OMIST) or WH space. Because EVE has such a good efficient market system in many cases you are placing yourself in competition with the game mechanics themselves if you try to move beyond the traditional approach. What you are attempting can only work where going around industry to JITA isn’t possible or producing something that can’t be built anywhere else (i.e. supers).
Meta items all drop from ‘pirate’ or non-empire faction NPCs. They also tend to have odd names, like say, ‘Unstable Power Fluctuator’ or ‘Inefficient Armor Repair Unit’.
Given both of these, here’s my suggestion: let players build meta items.. but only allow their construction in low- and nullsec. The canon reason? The modules are illegal copies, modified, by pirate corporations. It’ll be a buff to null and lowsec industry, *and* an ironic commentary on intellectual property. Fun for the whole family.
They will still drop everywhere, but the construction will only occur in outlaw space. Yay? Nay?
Yay – definitely
No way should you be allowed to build meta products. It will absolutly kill the market. Part of the toughness of Nul is not having the easy ability to go down to the local market for a rig or two. Those that are old enough recall the days before JFs where you would have a convoy with more protection than anything. Aside from perhaps having drones drop mods (Now that they don’t drop crystals), I think it would kill the market if people could manufacture meta mods. Bad enough that almost no one even uses meta 1 or 2′s to start with.
But my point is that I can easily make it so you could pop to a local market (that I create) to get rigs, ships, modules and ammo. I don’t mind (as much) importing moon goo that I don’t make myself to make things with, but I do mind having to buy Meta items which effectively competes against the things I make, at a much lower profit margin.
Now, if I could make these Meta items in a sort of intermediate step between T1 and T2 production, then it would make more sense. Material reqirements could be set to make sense with current pricing of modules and ammo.
The problem is that null sec logistics by its very nature will favour large alliances.
Think market hubs.
There is no null market as its easier to JF it all in, because logistics/compression are too easy, as you point out. To create a “local” market, make logistics harder & remove/reduce compression. Similarly if a certain T2 resource is in short supply locally, this forces conflict, rather than a stagnant “everything within a system” approach. Opponents can either conduct a trade approach to survive, ie one producer has ice, the other moon materials, or outright war.
The issue then becomes the superblob mechanics currently controlling sovereignty, and how independants can crack the local markets.
I think the difference between named and t2 items need to be more consistant. T2 MWD uses so much cap that using it once every 2 minutes (rough guess) makes the named version a better choice. Where as t2 invulns are just flat out better than their named. T2 modules in general should have a reason to be used, like more HP/stronger/etc in proportion to the already higher fitting requirements, just to give a reason to use a full t2 fit instead of t2 tank and guns with named MWD/scram/web.
With Alchemy taking a larger role, perhaps (transmutations?) reactions to create racial isotopes easily from other racial isotopes would be darn handy.
As for Jump freighters, I’ve long been interested in a module, similar to a cyno, but it allows the freighter (only the freighter) to continue a jump past it’s normal jump range. Utilizing these both in ship and POS to form a sort of highway that can be strung for a freighter to make one continuous jump ( allowing for fuel restrictions) to it’s final cyno destination. Obviously restricting this sort of movement to freighters only would be very important, and what with capacitor needs, pilot skills, perhaps this idea just isn’t feasable. Understanding that, I would stress this would be a hassle remover. Perhaps set it so that 3 – 4 “bridges” must be used, a ship must be next to the JF upon launch to provide it with the extra oomph it needs, a 10 min delay, whatever. Something to at least ease the logistical nighmare of living in null. I should think someone at CCP would have a blast designing new little nightmares for us in exchange for this “simple” solution ;P
Final thought, for meta level modules, a skill (at level 5 still a miniscule %) that would allow for an invention run ro “run amok” and pop out a meta level BPC. Just a thought.
Im sorry, but making it easier to live in Nul would be the worse thing to do. All about Risk rewards. You can make a ton of isk in Nul, and with that, deal with multiple jumps or whatever. Otherwise, people will use frieghters to haul ships across eve, jump clone to a new clone and go on fighting. They got rid of the multiple bridges in each system for a good reason, no way should they go back to evena lighter verision of that
I’m not really hoping to make it easier to live in null – there must be a significantly higher risk (although you can never beat jumping from hi-sec into lo-sec, as apparently you are instantly exploded by nasty pirates).
I guess what I’m trying to look for is a way for null sec to be able to be more self-sufficient. The answer must not be that everybody simply finds the easiest way to get to Jita using jump this and out of corp that. Simply nerfing logistics without adding or changing anything won’t work either, there has to be more, but that more doesn’t have to make it easier.
I’d rather spend more time ratting or mining in null sec where I’m more at risk of a passing fleet than I would do moving an NPC Corp alt in a freighter virtually risk free (suicide ganking excepted of course).
Make it easier for me to withdraw from my Jita dependency, and I’ll be more exposed to the risk of living in null sec as I’ll actually be logged on there more often.